Name: Go-To-Market Is The New Moat
Uploaded: 2024-07-16T17:16:12.035Z
Duration: 40 min 4 s
Description: Go-To-Market Is The New Moat

Transcript for "Go-To-Market Is The New Moat": Episode 2 of Start Good Trouble, an intercom webinar series where we host discussions with start up leaders. It's designed to equip founders and teams with the unique insights and modern tactics needed to help navigate the challenges of building and scaling a company. Today I have the absolute pleasure of speaking with Nick Kelson Sillett. He's a London based entrepreneur, angel investor, podcast startup mentor, and public speaker. He's currently the cofounder of the b two b sales tool, Trumpet, host of the pitch deck podcast and cofounder of the angel investing fund Courseplay Ventures. Nick, thank you so much for joining us today. I would love for you maybe first just to give us the quick elevator pitch for Trumpet and then share a bit about your background and kind of the journey that led you to founding Trumpet. Yeah. Sure. Thanks for having me on, Mark. Well, yeah, Trumpet, is all around the the thesis of buying software sucks. So if you can make it easier for your buyer to buy, they're gonna buy more from you. So Trumpet allows you to spin up digital sales rooms, personalized, collaborative, where all of your content, all of your pricing, all of your proposals, all of your case studies, all of your back and forward can sit in one digital space so you and your buyer can get the deal done quicker. Absolutely love it. So let's kind of dive in. You you have the idea. What were some of the kind of key challenges you faced when building Trumpet from 0 to 1? Yeah. I think, this is sort of my, yeah, second 2nd startup now. So, yeah, the challenges are the same. So it's being able to ship product quickly with a a small team, please your customers that are obviously paying good money for your product even though, you know, sometimes it might be held together with bits of string. And, of course, at the same time, getting that brand out there, and, you know, making a name for yourself. So you're just spinning so many plates from 0 to 1 with a limited team. Yeah. And I feel like a lot of the folks listening right now know how hard it can be to ship quickly without sacrificing quality. So I'd love to just hear about you and Trumpet's approach or processes that you use to find and strike that that right balance. Yeah. So in in terms of how we ship, it's it's quite a detailed process. I think that's something I learned from my first start up is putting processes in early is no bad thing. It doesn't suddenly make you a corporate. It actually allows things to run smoother. So from our point of view, we have several buckets that come in. So, frontline customer feedback. So over our intercom, people feeding back to us, raising bugs, that all comes live into our CS team, and they log that feedback for us. The second one is our outbound sales team who are, you know, speaking to potential customers. So, you know, they're able to give us, you know, what holes are in the product, what's missing, why aren't people getting over the edge to buy the product. Also allows you to to look at competitive sets as well at that at that instant. So all that feedback comes into our product manager as well from our sales team, and that goes into another bucket. And then the 3rd bucket for us is the big thinking, the strategic thinking, which, you know, that that's what the founders are there for. You're not there just to solely listen to customers and build what they want. You're there to move an industry forward. And to do that, you need to trust your own gut and think, okay. Well, this is where the product is now. Where do I want this product to be in 5 years, and how do we get there? And then it's about balancing those 3 buckets. Yeah. And can you give me a little bit of insight in maybe how you do some of that weighting when you when you're talking about taking in that kind of a frontline customer feedback, prospective customer feedback, and then the the grander vision that that you and the team have. Yeah. So it's a it's a constant balance. How we actually do it internally is with all these buckets. We we sit down and have a weekly product meeting, founders and RPM, and we're looking to the next quarter. So the next quarter, we're looking at those 3 buckets and thinking, at this stage, what would be nice to get done with with, like, a tinge of realism? So, you know, you know if it's 10 big features, you're not gonna get it all done in the next quarter. So as a 3, you sit down, You're looking at, the the different, feedback that's come in, and then we'll pick some for that quarter. What we then do is load that into linear, and that's when our sort of design and engineering come in, and we ask them to score, each ticket for us, on a point from 0 to a 100. 1 being something that would take us a few minutes. A 100 is, you know, a month job, let's say. And then design also come in at that point and are saying, okay. Is this something that, engineering can just do with the design protocols that we have? Or does design need to get involved, maybe speak to customers, and actually do a full design work as well? So when when we have those 2 weightings or scorings, what we then know as founders and our PM is how many points our engineering team and our design team can get done in a weekly sprint. And it's then our job to load that weekly sprint road map with the right amount of points. So we're not doing too many, and we're not doing too little that they're sitting on their hands. And then it's constantly keeping a balance of how we're tracking. So in linear, for example, we can see, our engineering team are constantly updating their tickets, and we can see if a, a feature is gonna run over, and that might have to go into the next week's sprint, which it does mean means that we can put less points in the next week's sprint. And so that that's how we, like, practically weight it. In terms of how we strategically weight it, I think it's a constant balance. You you need to show on the one hand that you are listening to your customers, and that you are gathering their feedback and acting on it. And that's one of the best way to surprise and delight customers. What we actually do is we have a product called Sleek Plan, which is our public road map. We put what's queued up there. We also allow our customers to add to that, so what they would like. And then there's a public vote. So actually our customers are upvoting and downvoting those features. What we do with that is then we hook that into linear and GitHub. And when we close that ticket, so when the feature's built, it automatically pings everyone that upvoted that feature to say, hey. That thing you upvoted is now live. Very simple to do, but just really makes the customer feel part of your journey. And we get a ton of great feedback from our customers that we really do listen. So practically how we weight it, it's probably, I would say, 60 to 70% of day to day smaller feature improvements and 30% of the bigger strategic, how do we move the actual product forward? Yeah. I absolutely love that, and I I like to hear that there is process because I think people look at process, especially at early stage companies, as that that bad word, right? And it can be, but if you do it right, what it does is it gives that really great internal alignment. And like you said, being able to have something that fully closes that loop with customers, letting them know that not only are we listening to you, but we're building it and then letting them know when it's when it's ready. It really does instill a lot of confidence in people and again, it kind of once that happens the first time, then all of a sudden it adds this nice flywheel effect where the next time they know that if they actually give you that feedback or they give you that that, idea that they might be having the product, then you're actually gonna be listening to it. And so I feel like it it kind of builds a nice momentum there. Yeah. I think that that's a great point is, yeah, you build that trust with the customer. Because actually, you know, let's be clear, like, getting feedback from your customers isn't a bad thing. It's not a chore that you're like, oh, there's more feedback that we have to deal with. Some of the best ideas come from your customers because they are using it day in, day out. So you wanna encourage as much feedback as possible. And, yeah, you obviously can't do all the feedback all the time. But, you know, that jewel of an idea might be in there from from one of your customers. So as you say, if they see that you actually act upon it, then, they will be sort of empowered to to keep feeding back to you. Absolutely. And I've had another discussion before with, Enzo Abogo of June, and we talked a lot about kind of that pre product market fit world. And being able to just have customers willing to give you that feedback who are actively using your product is obviously useful for any company of any stage, but especially if you're one of those founders that's in a place where you're still trying to really find that that fit in the market for what you do and what you do well, it's a good way to kind of collect all the different pieces of the puzzle and start to put them together. And what I always say to my team is, obviously, we love Trumpet. And our customers, you know, we hope love Trumpet, but in a different way. It's our life. We live it every day. They have their day jobs. So part of their day job isn't thinking, oh, how can I improve trumpet? So actually, you need to just make it as easy with lots of different ways, whether that's through intercom, whether that's in product, whether that is on something like sleep plan, whether it's just an email, just lots of different ways that they can quickly ping feedback back to you without saying, oh, you know, can you jump on a 20 minute call with my PM? We'd love to have a call with you. You know, everyone's busy. People don't wanna jump on calls, especially the younger age buyers, millennials, and Gen Zs. We don't wanna jump on calls anymore. So you've gotta look at how you gather feedback. And if the only way you're gathering feedback is an email saying, can we hop on a feedback call? Then you need to look at other ways that you can do it more async. Yeah. Absolutely. I love it. And I wanna switch gears a little bit. You and Shrumpet have a very unique approach to branding and marketing, and you've talked about building a B2B brand with a B2C flair. Can you elaborate on what that means and then how you've actually done it? Yeah. So it's a very deliberate approach. So so my background is actually brand marketing. So before I even went into the startup world in my mid twenties of my first startup, I was at L'Oreal, as a brand marketeer in London. So so I love brand. I love marketing. And I think my previous startup was b2c and b2b, so I was I was able to to unleash my creativity with the b2c side. But when we launched Trumpet, I just very quickly thought all b to b software sort of puts brands second, especially in sales, sales tech. A lot of it is blue and white, you'll notice. The way they speak to the customer is a bit jargony. They're not brands that you feel affiliated with. It's more that you just use their product day to day. And for customers to really love you, like we love, you know, Apple products and Nike products, you have to feel like a part of that brand that speaks to you. So from day dot, in the name Trumpet you know, Trumpet has nothing to do with sales. It's not a boring sales name. The colors we chose, so a very vibrant coral, yellows, blues. It's not just, like, light blue and white. The way we speak with our our customers, very down to earth, very friendly, jokey. We try and make people laugh. We try and have, moments of delight in the product that, again, will just bring some lightness and levity to their day to day. I always remember back back back in the day when I was using Trello and just I was using it, and then out of nowhere, this sort of unicorn just started floating across the screen, and it just made me smile. It had nothing to do with what I was doing. It wasn't giving me any information. I think the original best were Mailchimp. So when Mailchimp launched and they sent you, like, handwritten postcards and swag, and if you'd spoken to their customer success team, you would get a postcard from, like, America to our London office. So they were really, really good at that. So all aspects of what we do, we try and think, okay. If we were a b to c brand, how would we act? How would we speak? What would our tone of voice be? What how would we look, if we were trying to just, you know, appeal to just the normal person on the street, but not necessarily our ICP. And, yeah, sort of just a a a shift in how you think. You can get some really good results if you just don't think we're a b to b brand and box yourself in. Yeah. I I love that. And and it's it's obviously refreshing, being on kind of, like, the the b to b side of things and, finding brands that that wanna have not just a unique voice, but but that are kind of like living that in in everything that they do. And I think that's another tip for for founders who are trying to think about establishing their brand that it's it really isn't just a logo and a color set and, like, a tone of voice. It it has to kind of permeate all the different aspects of your business all the way from the the marketing communications you send to, how you go through your your sales, your go to market process, all the way down to how your customer support reps are interacting with with your customers. And it has to be in those, like, little fun moments too. And I think if if founders can kind of find something that that is really, unique and that's part of their voice and the the kind of image they want to bring to the market and if they can really invest in it and then keep at it, you can find it does start to build a really good momentum and people kind of start to, they they lean into it a little bit more when when they see they have a little bit more fun when they can see that the company that they're that they're buying from is is having a little bit of fun too. Yeah. They loosen up, and it becomes less sort of product and customer, and you sort of engage on the same level, which is important as a brand. You know, you don't constantly just want that customer product sort of dichotomy. Like, we're paying for the product. It needs to do x, x, y, zed. You should be doing this for me. It's actually like, hey. Look. We're both humans. We're both on the same outcome. We're having a bit of fun while we do it. Like, as long as the product's good and as as long as the product delivers, which luckily Trump is and does, then, yeah, as you say, have a bit of fun with it, and try and get the customer sort of just up to your level on a human aspect. Yeah. Less transactional. It's not just I'm giving you money, you're giving me your product, you're making it yeah. Absolutely. Going back a little bit, you you mentioned to me before when we were prepping that at one point you were able to generate over 4,000 waitlist sign ups for Trumpet before you launched, which is not only impressive in and of itself, but especially for a b to b product. Could you share what the most effective tactics or strategies were that you used to kind of build that level of demand for trumpet? Yeah. So first and foremost, before we even started designing or writing a line of code, we started building our personal brand on on LinkedIn. You know, it's sort of it's sort of the the social media everyone looks down on. But for me, if you are a founder of a company and that's where your customers are, especially if you're b to b, you know, start engaging with LinkedIn. I was fortunate because I had a really nice exit from my first business, so that obviously gives you a bit of credibility to have a voice. But I say to people when they're building their personal brand, you don't have to be a superstar or done loads. You just gotta talk about your journey, and you will find your tribe, that wanna listen to you and wanna learn from you, whether you're this is your first SDR or AE job, and you start talking about the the wins, the struggles, help, or whether you're an exited founder and you you can more advise people. Like, everyone has got a voice that can be heard. So no matter how inexperienced you are, don't think you can't. So, yeah, we were very strategic at that about that, building our personal brand, not even talking about Trumpet at that point. Then we built up a following, and then we were like, something's coming. We're going again. That got intrigued. Didn't really talk about Trumpet. Shared some, like, Figma blurred out stuff to get, you know, people excited. What what's next? What's he building? Then we launched a wait list. So we, again, didn't give away too much. And in a weird sort of way, that's the way to do it. So it's sort of like I think when we started, like, the sales deck is dead or something like that. You know, that's all we went with. Nothing else. And people are like, oh, what's this? And then it's all about FOMO, and the human psyche. So you sign up to a a a wait list. We would then be feeding them information from that wait list. So, again, we wanted to educate our customers. So we didn't want them to sign up a wait list and they're not here for us for 3 months. So we turned that into like a mini newsletter. So we were educating them about sales, weren't talking about Trumpet still, just making it an informative newsletter. We then had a viral loops product where if you recommended other people, you'd go up the wait list. We then launched, as you can see I'm wearing here, our our our trumpet tee. So this was again before we launched. Very deliberate with our trumpet tee. Really good quality. This is all that it's got on it. So just the the the cute little trumpet logo. You don't see trumpet anywhere or our u I URL on the back. So it's very like people can wear it out day to day. And they just took off. We started sending them out. So it was if you refer 10 people, you go up the list and got a free t shirt, and we'd send the t shirt out. And people just started wearing them and putting them on LinkedIn and Slacking us. And we have people saying, I was at a barbecue today and someone asked me how I got a trumpet t shirt or they were at a party and 2 people were wearing the t shirt and took a selfie and sent it to us. And it just became, like, a really nice t shirt that people wanted to wear, And then people wanted access to the t shirt, more of the product, and then that became a well, you need to refer people to the wait list, and then people sort of did their our job for us. And then that all just started to take care of itself. And all of that was before even showing a screenshot of the product or what actually Trumpet was building. That's fantastic. And I you you mentioned a couple of, you know, specific tactics in there, you talked about, what a lot of people call founder led marketing now, and one of the reasons I really like that is it's, I think it's a little bit more genuine, and if you do it right, it really is about exactly what you said, finding your tribe. But it comes from being honest and open and sharing your journey, like the wins, the losses. But, another bit of advice for for anybody who's thinking about doing this is you you have to find a really good balance. You you need to be putting value first and the value is people hearing about your journey and you sharing insights and what you've learned or what what you've tried and didn't work out. But that's kind of it sounds like that's part of it. And then the other part is, obviously there's like the the human psyche you had mentioned, but it's it's having a very deliberate plan for like what you're going to do. It's not just about getting waitlist sign ups and then they just sit there. It's not just about getting people into your database and then sending them an email when their product is launched. You you guys were very thoughtful about going from getting those those sign ups to then generating more, leveraging it, building excitement, but also building that affinity. And I like that you were building that brand affinity even before you had a product because I think, again, it just kind of goes from, the the value you're trying to provide from kind first first principles. Yeah. And to be totally honest, you know, what we did find was, because we had loads of people signed up and were just more interested in what we were building rather than where our core ICP or our ideal customer profile, you know, a lot of those 4,000 weren't the right trumpet users actually when we launched and wouldn't be ones that paid for it. So something to bear in mind that that 4,000 didn't suddenly turn into 4,000 paying users. But how I looked at it again with my brand marketing hat on was people were talking about Trumpet. People were talking about Trumpet on LinkedIn. People were talking about Trumpet outside. People were engaging with us already. So there was that brand equity that was already being built even before the product was launched. Yeah. I love that. And that's another great tip is the brand exposure and awareness, I think, is more important than founders sometimes think about. I think it's discounted and that's understandable because you're looking at key metrics. You wanna get signed up and users and paying customers, but the the awareness of your brand and what you do is really important and that that is it's kind of like content marketing where it's an investment over time. It's you you have to make this investment and then it starts to pay dividends, but not necessarily right away, but it is something that should be on every every founder's mind. Great. So let's talk a little bit about go to market strategies. Again, you had mentioned when we were preparing some of our chat that used the phrase go to market is the new moat. Can you explain what that means and how Trump is kind of using that philosophy? Yeah. So, this is sort of my my sort of new buzzword when I'm sort of on stage or or speaking to people like yourself. Just made me reflect. And some founder WhatsApp groups I'm in and investor WhatsApp groups I'm in, people started discussing moat. And why I think times have changed is with AI and no code, suddenly engineering, dev, as your moat, which it has been for the last 2, 3, 4 decades. It's always been like, how good is your product, how quick can you ship, and how good is your engineering team? And AI is only gonna get better. So I'm not saying engineers aren't gonna be necessary here, and I'm definitely not saying don't build a great product. But your moat being your product, your engineering, your dev team is no longer, I don't think, because of the speed that people are gonna be able to develop with AI and no code. So when you look at okay. Well, how do you defend yourself nowadays then? Because, you know, if you launch a product and people start seeing it gets traction, people can spin that up super quick. We've seen that in the digital sales room. Like, in our space, we were one of the first, and now there's probably, like, 35 at least. And they're spinning up very quickly, no code AI. Obviously, nowhere near the level of trumpet because they're so basic, but it's still a competitor. So we sort of reframed it as go to market is the new moat. And it's it's stuff we've talked about. And I look at, obviously, go to market in this framing as your outbound sales and your your marketing. So outbound sales being if you can, develop a great outbound sales strategy, a team. Again, I'm a huge obviously, we're in the sales space, but I'm a huge believer that salespeople, who have always been a bit looked down upon are gonna be the new engineers. Like, to find amazing salespeople, that can close deals is priceless for any startup. So if you can find those people, develop your sales playbook, find the the the messaging that works, understand your core ICP, and go and sell to them quickly and and come out of the gate, get those logos, get those lighthouse logos. That will put you ahead of competitors that are just launching. And on the other side, marketing and brands. So we've talked about brands a lot. And then the nuts and bolts of actual just marketing, b to b marketing, whether it be SEO, whether it be organic content content, whether it be, webinars, whether it be podcasts, whether it be influencers, whether it be digital ads. You know, there's loads of stuff you can do. Again, if you execute on those well with, people that know what they're doing, surround yourself with people that know what they're doing, And that might be a freelancer at the start, because you can't hire someone. Again, that sets you apart. And if if you think of those 2 facets going out, a really strong outbound sales team signing up customers and a really strong brand market presence, then if a competitor comes in and even matches your product in terms of functionality, you're gonna be way ahead of them. Absolutely. I I absolutely love that. The a couple of things really resonate. Obviously, the the kind of barriers to techno techno, technology entry is is, like, dropping. It's going to continue to drop. And for anybody who doesn't maybe have, like, a B2B sales motion, you had touched on it that it really just is about the buying experience. If you can develop a truly world class customer centric buying experience that just works really well, you match that to a fantastic brand and just really well done marketing and I would also add into that genuine content because I think in the same way that, you know, some parts of some parts of the the building process have become commoditized, so is content. You know, it used to be that it was harder to spin up a website or a blog or to get things out there and to to make it searchable, but now a lot of those barriers are gone. And so there's just been this deluge of of kind of fluff that that exists out there. And so being able to have, like, genuine, true, valuable content to people and then getting that in front of them and making that buying experience easy, Those are all things very much within your control even if you have maybe a product that's not up to the the standards of the the incumbent or something like that. So I think that's just a great framing overall for for founders. Yeah. And and and you're bang on with the content piece. It's not just about spitting out content now. I was actually, on a call with the CMO of Gong, the other day who had a really great chat, and he he impressed me as well. It's content that's useful. It sounds so obvious, but, actually, when you're under pressure to spin out lots of content with AI existing now and gonna be much, much better very quickly probably, a, spitting out AI SEO ed content is gonna be super easy. And then the other thing you need to think about SEO is, will SEO exist? You know, will people be googling in 5 years? You know, already, for for example, I use perplexity, a lot of times to answer questions. I don't go to Google. And, obviously, Google's got Gemini. And there might be a point, yeah, where actually AI is is finding you and telling you what you need without you searching for it. So that's something to think about with SEO, is that if you make the content less about SEO, but more about being useful, easily digestible, and easily shareable that people get benefit from and will share it internally. Not talking about your product necessarily, Mhmm. But then that keeps your brand front of mind again. And and when they are thinking about a digital sales room, then Trumpet will be be front of mind. Absolutely. And another bit of advice I typically give to to people thinking about how to develop a content strategy is don't think about it in terms of the channels you're gonna be posting in or the format that it needs to be in or or things like that. Start with the idea, the topic, the theme, the the the belief that you and your business have, and you had mentioned, you know, that the pitch deck is dead. Right? That is a big bold claim and what you wanna have is a a mindset around that and thing interesting things to say about that and to back it up. And then take that, and then you can create tons of different types of content. And then, again, AI and and a lot of these these tools now make it very easy to translate a discussion like this into a YouTube video, a blog post, a LinkedIn post, a video, like, whatever it is that you wanna do. So I encourage people to think about it from the the content and the value in the content itself, and then the actual channels and the formats should come later. Yeah. Totally agree. And as you say, it's so much easier now in the positive AI is to, yeah, spin out the different formats from that piece, and you can repurpose content as well for different channels. But for 1st and foremost, tell something to the potential reader that they might not know already and that they can action and learn from. Like, Gong, for example, were the masters of the stats that they spat out based on the the call recording. So, you know, if you swore, you actually had a 3% more chance of closing the deal or but there was just a, humor with it sometimes, but also just very interesting quick stats. And, you know, if it was I don't know, I'm making something up here. But, you know, if if it if you say, like, hey. Hey. First name at the start, not hi. Whatever. And that has a 15% more chance of, closing the deal. That image, you will share on your Slack channel with your sales team. Just be like, oh, look what Gong I've just shared. Like, make sure you're saying hi, first name, not hi. So, yeah, that that needs to be in your mindset as well, that it needs be digestible. So in their thing, it was a quick stat, and just really relevant and useful. Absolutely. So we're coming up the time. I kind of one last kind of final question. Just reflecting on your journey so far, I would just love to hear some of the key lessons you've learned, maybe some things you wish you had known when you had started or even if you want maybe just some advice to other entrepreneurs who might just be starting out. Yeah. So, I think the things I've learned, especially from my first one to to now this one, so, a, one thing I always say to founders, and actually as an investor, is think what you want out of your startup. All you read in TechCrunch is raising money, unicorn. Raising money, unicorn. You don't see that most of those people that raised money and were hyped in TechCrunch go down to nothing, and the founder leaves with nothing. So really decide with yourself and or your cofounder, or cofounders, what do you want out of this business? It doesn't it can still be very successful if you sell it for 5,000,000 and you own all the equity, or if you owe if you wanna take £200,000 as or dollars a year as a salary, or you do wanna sell it for 50,000,000, or you do wanna go and build that unicorn. But there's no right or wrong way to do it. Decide what you want from your startup, whether it's financial freedom. Financial freedom is very different to different people as well. Whether it's salary, whether it's a lifestyle business, there's no right or wrong. There's no, like, more successful or less successful. It's successful if you've achieved what you wanna achieve out of it. And it's actually something a lot of founders don't think about. They just go into it going, we're gonna build a big company, and then actually think about that. So I think that's very important. The second thing is your team. I know everyone talks about team. How I look at team is those first sort of 5 hires, are super, super important. Don't underestimate that. I sort of call them, like, my iron ring, that I hope are gonna stay for the whole time. And they they are there. They are believing in you. They believe in the the the the product. They believe in the brand. They're fully in. And then as you get bigger and bigger, my first company in the UK, Design My Night, we scaled to over a 100 people. Most of that iron ring was still there, and they were my eyes and ears. So, like, I couldn't be everywhere at all times. They could report back to me if people were upset or disappointed or the mood was down. You know, they're sort of like your second in command. So think when you're hiring those people, not just on skill set, but also culture, that they embody everything you're trying to build, and you wanna work with them for the next 5, 10 years. So that's really important. And the 3rd, is we we touched upon it at the start, is it's never too early to put in processes. Processes don't have to cost money. You know, you can build processes in, in in Trello or Notion, you know, all these sort of, free freemium model tools. You don't have to buy loads of different tools at the start, but just just put in processes, very simple, doesn't hold you back, but that you know that if you stepped out of that department for a week, that it would still be able to run itself. I think one of the biggest mistakes I did at Design My Night, even when we got to, you know, a 100 people, was I was so involved in everything. And I think I didn't give people the freedom to just go and do their thing set within my framework of of process. So, yeah, it's it's it's it's a dirty word process, but it's something that, you should really think about from the start no matter how big your team is. That's all beautifully said. I love it. Nick, this has been incredibly insightful. I've had a lot of fun, and I really appreciate you taking the time to come in today. Before we wrap up, is there, a way that somebody can kinda connect with you? Where can people find you? And also where can people learn more about trumpet? Yeah. So, I do my thing on LinkedIn. It's the only social media I have. So, you can go and follow me on LinkedIn. Connect with me. Be mindful. I get hundreds and hundreds of messages. So if I don't reply, I don't reply straight away. It's nothing personal. But, you know, if you if you are a a start up or a founder, or in sales, do do follow me. I I I as I said, I try and put out education content every week. It's not just about Trumpet. And if you wanna learn more about Trumpet itself, so if you're in a revenue team, so customer success, account management, SDR, or account exec, go over to, sendtrumpet.com and and check out what we do. Awesome. Thanks again, Nick, and I'm looking forward to hopefully talking again soon. Thanks a lot, Mark. Cheers.